Name: Carla Harris on the Board's Most Crucial Task: CEO Succession
Uploaded: 2025-12-18T10:00:00Z
Duration: 15 min 17 s
Description: Inside the Boardroom: Carla Harris, a board member at Walmart, Cummins, and MetLife and Senior Client Advisor at Morgan Stanley, joins WSJ's Emily Glazer to analyze the critical role of CEO succession planning in the modern boardroom. Recorded on Nov. 10, 2025.

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Inside the Boardroom: Carla Harris, a board member at Walmart, Cummins, and MetLife and Senior Client Advisor at Morgan Stanley, joins WSJ's Emily Glazer to analyze the critical role of CEO succession planning in the modern boardroom. Recorded on Nov. 10, 2025. Photo: WSJ Leadership Institute

https://m.wsj.net/video/20251215/eababede-983e-4060-85dd-1d2df7bda47d/1/hls/manifest-hd-wifi.m3u8

Inside the Boardroom: Carla Harris, a board member at Walmart, Cummins, and MetLife and Senior Client Advisor at Morgan Stanley, joins WSJ's Emily Glazer to analyze the critical role of CEO succession planning in the modern boardroom. Recorded on Nov. 10, 2025.

Carla Harris on the Board's Most Crucial Task: CEO Succession

Hi there, I'm Emily Glazer, an enterprise reporter with the Wall Street Journal, and I'm thrilled to be interviewing Carla Harris. She's a senior client advisor at Morgan Stanley, and on the boards of directors of Walmart, Cummins, and MetLife. Carla, it is such a pleasure to have you.

It is my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Thank you. We are talking about a super-important topic, and it's something that-

Mm-hmm.

You've actually said is the most important thing a board could do.

Mm-hmm.

CEO succession. Why is that?

It is the most important thing that a board will ever do over the course of its life, is because they are preparing the next generation of leadership, if you will, or they're making a decision about the next generation of leadership as it will benefit the shareholders, because the number one thing that a board director is there to do is to represent the interests of the shareholders. So you have to be forward-thinking, you have to make a good decision, so that the value that's already been created by one CEO is extended as you go to a new leader.

What about if there's an iconic CEO-

Mm-hmm.

Someone that is just so embedded with the company, do you have any advice for board members on how they handle that?

I think you have to start thinking about that way ahead of time, if that person already has that external profile, because it's not the profile at the end of the day that creates the value, it's the person that creates the value. And you might have a successor that does not like to be in the limelight, that does not like to be so external, but yet they're a great strategist, they're a great executor, they're a great developer of talent. And those are some of the characteristics that you are looking for. So I think you have to think to yourself as a director, what is the need for the organization that will produce the highest value we believe based on what the company is going to need in the next two to five to 10 years?

And that can change, I mean, to your point, what might have been the key qualities for five years ago might not be the key qualities in five years.

Mm-hmm.

Can you share a little bit about in this day and age, late 2025, what are some of the top of mind characteristics that you think are needed to be a successful CEO?

Yes, first of all, I think you need to be agile, right? Because if you think about where we are today, it used to be that innovation was every 10 years, every five years, every two years. But if you think about it now, every 10 months you're getting a new version of a phone, so that tells you something. You think about what AI has done to the way we think, the way we look up things, the way we leverage technology just in the last year, I think about where we were this time last year. So first of all, you have to be agile; the second, you have to be decisive; third, I think you also have to be a good developer and identifier of talent because again, if you think about artificial intelligence, nobody was recruiting for an artificial intelligence specialist-

Hmm, no.

Three years ago.

No.

Five years ago. We were talking about things like cybersecurity, yes, three years ago, four years ago, but not when we think about how we're thinking about artificial intelligence today. So there has to be something about your ability to identify that talent, but more importantly to recruit and retain that talent. And you also have to be, I think somebody who's very strategic.

Emily: Hmm.

What are you going to need going forward that's already within the organization? What might you have to buy? Who might you have to partner with? Again, I'm gonna take you back 20 years ago, everything was about proprietary, everything was about developing it internally. Now with the rate of change, the name of the game is partnership and collaboration.

Hmm.

Which is very different.

Very good point.

So if you think about a CEO 20 years ago, thinking about investing in a bigger way in R&D to create, but now you think about a CEO who's thinking about who they can partner with to get to the market the fastest.

Hmm, great point. I feel like every day we have a new big deal, big sponsorship, big partnership-

Hmm.

On the front page of the Wall Street Journal.

Mm-hmm.

So you mentioned 20 years ago, I wanna go back to around that timeframe. Morgan Stanley was the lead banker on the Martha Stewart-

Yeah.

Living Omnimedia IPO. And part of your job I think was making sure investors would feel comfortable bringing that company public with-

Hmm.

Martha Stewart and beyond.

Yeah.

Can you share a little bit about what that and beyond could look like?

Yeah.

Because she wasn't around.

Yes, I think we did that deal in 1999, that was my assignment, that was one of my transactions. And I'll tell you, one of the things that I'm most proud about is that we were able to convince investors, institutional investors that there was a whole company behind Martha. You talk about an iconic person, you just asked me about an iconic CEO, that was an iconic CEO and an iconic personality, that is still an iconic personality today.

Mm-hmm, a resurgence in some ways actually.

Yeah, absolutely, but in many ways, the question that we knew would be on investors' mind is, suppose Martha gets hit by a bus, right? What happens then? You're asking people to make an investment in a company for the long-term, not for the short-term. And so part of our job was to make sure that we showcased the rest of the talent. There were amazing executives behind Martha. There was an outstanding CFO, there was an outstanding President, outstanding COO. And we had to make sure that they were seen and positioned properly as we went throughout that roadshow. So there's no question, people were packing ballrooms to see Martha, but at the end of the day the message was, oh, it's more than Martha, which as you know, I think resonated with the investors because it was so oversubscribed and an amazingly successful IPO that went on to trade quite well in the aftermarket.

What would you say if perhaps an investor was thinking, no one could fill her shoes? Was the idea these executives aren't trying to be Martha Stewart, they're bringing something else to the table? Was that the pitch?

Absolutely. I mean, you have to talk about the strengths and weaknesses of the entire organization. And again, as I said, our job was to showcase, so the CFO was part of the presentation; the COO, President, was part of the presentation. So investors could actually, as I like to say, touch, taste and feel them, and feel comfortable that the organization was in great hands.

Mm-hmm.

And that's part of what you're supposed to do as an underwriter, especially when you have such an iconic being as the CEO.

Hmm, it's not only about Martha, even if she's the face of it.

No.

Do you have any advice for board members that are sitting on boards of companies where they really do have that intensity where the CEO is the company?

Mm-hmm.

And we see this a lot with tech companies, founder CEOs.

Mm-hmm.

Do you have any advice for them?

I'd say to be careful to make sure that you are allowing other executives to have interactions, especially with institutional shareholders.

Hmm.

Almost every company has some type of investor day where they are either taking their investors to a plant or they are meeting them in New York, and they wanna talk about the strategy going forward. Well, on those days, that's a prime opportunity to make sure that your direct reports as a CEO, they all have a speaking role, they all have a table-

No hiding here.

That they're hosting. No, no, no. No, you cannot.

Yeah.

Because you don't know who that's gonna be.

Hmm.

And every company, every board needs to have a choice.

Mm-hmm.

I like to say, you don't wanna actually pin all of your hopes just on one person, you want the institutional community to feel that your bench is so strong, it could be that person, it could be that person, it could be that person. And again, I'm a big fan, as you know, I write about that if you are the leader, you should be developing ambidextrous leaders, so they could literally go anywhere within the organization and shine.

Carla's pearls of wisdom.

Yeah, well, that's what I

I love it, I love it.

That's

You got ahead of me on that one.

Yeah.

So what happens when you are down to say, the top two or three candidates?

Mm-hmm.

And the person is chosen, do you have any advice for how to make sure those other people don't leave?

Yes. Everybody, as I like to say, has a stimulus, right? So part of your job is to also understand and identify what's the thing that's actually going to excite number two or number three to stay. As I like to say, some people are motivated by money, some people are motivated by power, position, some people are motivated by the attaboy or the attagirl. But you gotta figure out what's the thing-

Hmm.

That will at least give you the highest probability of being able to keep that talent. Now if you look back over the last 40 or 50 years, there's lots of examples where there might have been four or five. GE is the one that really comes to mind.

Mm-hmm.

Back in the day in the 90s after Jeff Immelt was chosen.

Mm-hmm.

There were like four, five guys, all of whom were iconic, all of whom had done a great job, that were not chosen, but within a year or two, you saw each one of them showing up as a CEO of another Fortune 500-

Mm-hmm.

Company, for example. But it's a tough thing to do, but I think you gotta give it your best shot, if you're that board is to think about it beforehand. So when the decision is made, you give it your best shot to keep them.

James Gorman has said with the Morgan Stanley CEO succession, "It was really important to try to keep folks around." And they offered very hefty pay packages. This is all public.

Hmm.

As James Gorman was coming into the role, what that was like for you as a really senior banker and having that moment of CEO succession at your own company-

Mm-hmm.

And how you were thinking about that then?

Yeah, at Morgan Stanley.

At Morgan Stanley, yes.

Yes. So I will tell you that I grew up under John Mack's leadership. I was a young, young, young associate when he was head of Fixed Income, and then he went on to be President, and went on to become CEO. And I remember asking him-

And he is Gorman's predecessor, right?

Yes, he is, he is James Gorman's predecessor. And I remember when he brought James over, I wanna say it was circa 2006, somewhere in that zip code. And I remember when it was clear that he was going to ascend to the President and then CEO's role, and I remember asking John at one moment. And he said, without hesitation, "He's the guy for right now. We are in a very different environment than what we have been in before. This is an environment where it matters your relationships with your regulators, it matters with your relationships with your rating agencies. And he is unbelievable, he is the guy." And I gotta tell you, as somebody who really didn't have a seat at the table at the time for my current CEO to say that about my future CEO, it was huge. It was huge. And I would say that the lesson for me is that if you're sitting in that director seat and there is a change, you have to make sure that you are making it clear to all involved, or who were not at that table that this is the right choice.

Hmm.

Indisputably. And obviously, you know what happened historically, James went on to become an amazing CEO, putting point after point after point on the board creating even more value for the Morgan Stanley franchise.

Hmm, indeed. And now he's going running the CEO succession process at Disney.

They couldn't have a better guy doing the job.

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

And just for context too, he was this kind of Aussie coming in from McKinsey and a lawyer, so pretty different than some of like the New York, Wall Street banker type.

Yes.

So it was quite a transition.

Yeah.

All right, I wanna give you one more hypothetical here.

Mm-hmm.

Let's say, you've got a CEO who is just not ready to leave.

Mm-hmm.

And I have to imagine this has happened before, whether you're on the board or whether you're a banker, it's a great job, and the ego around it and the power, the pay, the leadership.

Mm-hmm.

There's so many things that drive people to not wanna leave that role.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

As a board member, what kind of advice would you give to others when it is time for them to go?

Yeah, I think it's important that the board can't get ahead of that, right? You know who you're working with, the CEO works directly with the board. And if you anticipate that that might in fact be an issue, then I think you have to get ahead of that and start having those conversations early, and start actually having frank conversations about what the timeline might look like. And more importantly, Emily, don't forget that part of any executive's job, including the CEO is to make sure that they are developing people for the next seat. And if you have direct reports of, I like to call it, let's call it an executive leadership team, then if your CEO is doing his or her job, they are investing in that next level of leadership. So again, as I said, so that the board, the CEO has a choice. And if that's not happening, then that's your opportunity to hold that CEO's feet to the fire with respect to their evaluation about what they're doing in terms of developing talent.

Hmm, absolutely. Now really quickly on some of the boards that you serve on, there has been internal succession.

Mm-hmm.

Where there was a really deep bench.

Mm-hmm.

I'm thinking of Cummins, for one.

Mm-hmm, hmm.

MetLife-

Mm-hmm.

I think as well.

Mm-hmm.

Is there anything that you've picked up from being on boards where these really successful internal CEO successions-

Mm-hmm.

Have moved forward that you think just work-

Yeah.

Or elements of that?

And many of these preceded me in terms of the decisions-

I won't give you all-

Happening.

The credit, Carla, sorry.

No, okay. No, no, no, no. But my point to you is that my takeaway as a newbie on these boards, when these transitions were happening, or they had just happened before, my thought, and this is why I say this to you before, the board was already thinking about that. They had already planned how this might transpire, they had choices, and they made their choice. And that's why I said, it's so important for the board to pay attention, as you said, to the personality, to the external profile, to the company's needs going forward, so that you can make that a seamless transition because-

Mm-hmm.

That's really the goal. That's the holy grail, is that when you make the change, it's no big deal. The institutional community is not surprised, they buy it, they embrace it, and you move on.

Mm-hmm. Okay, one last question 'cause I love hearing Carla's pearls of wisdom. If someone is meeting with the board who is on the executive side now-

Mm-hmm.

And maybe they're kind of a few levels down, but they're getting that exposure-

Mm-hmm.

That we're talking about. Are there certain things that you look for that in your mind you think, he's got it or she's got it?

Mm-hmm. I'd say the first one for me personally is their command of the business. Are they talking about just their vertical or are they talking about the business as a whole? Second one for me, do they have a sense of ownership? And I like to hear words like "my", "our", because that's the possessive, I own this.

You're okay with "my"?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm okay with that when people say things like, "My people."

Emily: Hmm.

Especially when they say "My people", right? Because that says that they understand that they're not doing it alone-

Hmm.

Because nobody can do it alone. So when somebody is very self-aware that they, "they" are successful in that seat because of them-

Hmm.

That resonates with me a lot.

All right, folks-

Mm-hmm.

You heard it here. Thank you, Carla Harris.

Well, thank you very much.

And if you're tuning in, now you know what it takes to be a CEO in the eyes of Carla Harris. Thank you.

Thank you.