Name: This Christian Nationalist Pastor Wants to Merge Church and State
Uploaded: 2025-09-26T04:01:00Z
Duration: 9 min 59 s
Description: Pastor Doug Wilson is at the forefront of the controversial Christian nationalism movement, which is moving mainstream under Trump.

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Pastor Doug Wilson is at the forefront of the controversial Christian nationalism movement, which is moving mainstream under Trump. Photo: Umit Gulsen

https://m.wsj.net/video/20250925/4f520623-786b-49c4-b9c5-18aa6e9b6db2/1/hls/manifest-hd-wifi.m3u8

Pastor Doug Wilson is at the forefront of the controversial Christian nationalism movement, which is moving mainstream under Trump.

This Christian Nationalist Pastor Wants to Merge Church and State

God is angry with us. And that's my short form definition of Christian nationalism. America should stop making God angry.

Reporter: For Pastor Doug Wilson, that means merging church and state, something he's preached for decades. To many, he's-

The person most closely identified with that phrase, Christian nationalism.

It's a term I accept and embrace. It wasn't a term I came up with, but I prefer it to the names I usually get called.

Which are?

White supremacist, theofascist, Christofascist, all round bad guy.

Reporter: Once a fringe ideology, Christian nationalism is now reaching the nation's centers of power. Wilson has spoken at the National Conservatism Conference where a rising number of government officials now appear. He's opened a branch of his church in DC, expanding his global network of 150 churches. And one of his most recognized congregants is Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth. WSJ politics reporter Aaron Zitner sat down with Wilson to discuss his growing influence under Trump.

So what is Christian nationalism as you define it?

Christian nationalism is the conviction that secularism is a failed project, and then no society can function or exist without a transcendental grounding. So Christian nationalism is the idea that a society needs God in order to function.

What does government look like and civil society look like in a Christian nationalist, biblically guided-

We'll start with civil society, it would look a lot smaller, as I'm fond of saying, if this is the state and if there is no God above the state, then the state is God. And I don't want the state to be God. I don't wanna live under the pretentious rule of finite beings who breathe through their nose running every aspect of our lives as though they were the deity.

Is there room in a Christian, biblically driven society, a Christian nationalist society for Muslims and Hindus and people who aren't Christians?

Yes, but not room for a ton of them. Protestants, Catholics and Jews are sort of a defacto arrangement that we've worked out over centuries, but I wouldn't want to exacerbate our problem by importing millions of Muslims such that we wind up with Dearborn, Michigan with unregulated immigration. You're gonna turn the Michigan-Ohio border into the India-Pakistan border. You're just importing strife. And I don't think we ought to import strife.

And gay rights, gay marriage, homosexual activity?

No gay marriage, no. And gay rights, it depends on what you mean. Gays would have the right to keep and bear arms, they would have the right to peaceably assemble, they would have the right to publish their views, you know? But those aren't gay rights, those are people rights.

But at one point in this country, same sex activity was a felony. Would you reinstate that?

No same sex activity was illegal, yes. And would be again, yes.

Reporter: Wilson has expressed support for repealing the 19th Amendment, which gave women the right to vote in 1920. An alternative voting system is already in place at Wilson's church.

In our church, we have elections for ministers or elders or deacons. And in our polity, households have the vote, not men, not women. So when a woman is the head of a household, as some of them are in our church, in Acts 16, Lydia is the head of her household. If she were in our church, she would vote, but she would vote on behalf of her household.

The household is the basic unit of societal organization and the household votes, which, if there's a man and a woman would be a male headed.

So the voter would usually be the man, but it's not required, that's not required.

The world you're describing seems like a different version of democracy, if it's democracy at all. There are people who would say, this is a threat to democracy as we know it. There's no alternative religions in the public sphere. Homosexuality is activity is outlawed. And our rules around voting default to male heads of households and not women. Is this a threat to democracy?

No, were we a democracy in 1950? We were the world's leading democracy in 1950. We were a free and orderly society. when all these things that I'm on my wishlist was actually the case. When I was a kid, it was the case, when I was a young man, it was the case. And we were not a totalitarian hellhole when all these things that I'm wishing for were the case.

Reporter: Wilson says he didn't vote for President Trump in 2016, but supported him in 2020 and 2024 after Trump's Supreme Court nominations helped strike down Roe v. Wade,

What do you see from President Trump that is helpful in your goal of persuading Americans to accept a Christian nation? I think that the most helpful thing that he is doing and is likely to do is again, judges. Appointing judges to the federal bench who are in a position to cut back the overreach.

He's created more space in the public sphere for religion?

Yes, so, and I'm happy about that, although I don't want hard establishment of religion. I don't want an official denomination of the United States or of any particular state. But I do believe that the civil government should be friendly toward Christianity. And an example would be the prayer meeting at the Pentagon that Pete Hegseth started.

If you would bow your head in prayer.

I like to see that kind of thing, yeah.

Reporter: The Pentagon confirmed that Hegseth is a member of Wilson's church network and that he very much appreciates many of Mr. Wilson's writings and teachings. Beyond DC Christian nationalism is on the rise. Slain conservative activist, Charlie Kirk hosted Wilson on his podcast last year, calling him an incredibly thoughtful man. After Kirk's death, Wilson said that-

That everyone on the left needs to answer for this politically.

As you've grown in prominence, you've also gathered critics.

Yeah, that's happened, yeah.

There are a number of women who say that the church was insufficiently active in policing and preventing abuse. And that your vision of gender roles and fixed gender roles and women being subservient to their husbands creates an environment where women can be abused. What should we know about those accusations?

If we zoom out and look at those accusations generally as a group, there are a number of them where they're just telling lies. It is just, let's throw whatever we can at Christchurch and see what sticks. Sometimes the lies are whole cloth. Sometimes the lies are partial truths represented as the whole truth, which is an untruth. I would say to my critics, knock yourself out. The leadership of Christchurch, not perfectly, but conscientiously has sought to do the right thing morally and legally in all these cases.

Another criticism that has come up is your writings from the 1990s about slavery in which you said relations between slaves and masters were amicable. Do you still believe that?

Some of the narratives are beyond horrific? They're everything you could imagine from some abolitionist literature, they're just evil. And as we said in that booklet, we're not gonna defend anything evil. That kind of thing is just horrific. And then there were other relationships, other descriptions of slavery times from former slaves where they looked back on that time wistfully, they loved their masters, they had a great relationship, and that quote, I would apply to relationships like that. What that means is that slavery, it was a human fallen institution that I'm glad is gone, good riddance. But in within that institution, there were people who were evil and there were people who were decent human beings that remembered the Apostle Paul's instructions to masters in Ephesians and in Colossians, "Remember that you have a master in heaven, treat your slaves with equity and justice."

So we live in a society where the long-term trend is more people disaffiliating from religion. We have a more diverse society with more people of different religious backgrounds than decades ago. And we have a society that's more egalitarian in terms of women, making gains in the economy and becoming managers and taking more prominent roles in businesses. Why should an America that has this diversity, should that America fear Christian nationalism? And why should it accept a vision of Christian nationalism as you've just outlined.

Given their premises, they shouldn't,

They shouldn't?

Shouldn't.

Shouldn't fear.

No, they shouldn't fear and they shouldn't accept it because we're not doing this with guns, right? We're not taking over, this is not a violent insurrection. What we're talking about is evangelism, church planting, persuasion.

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